Episode 16 Coffee Chats: Margy Brill, LCSW on sober curiosity & mindful moderation

In this episode of Coffee Chats, Sam connects with Margy Brill, LCSW on sober curiosity and mindful moderation. They connect on Margy’s personal and professional interest in mindful moderation, the benefits of increasing one’s awareness around substance use, how therapeutic work can support sober curious folks, common misconceptions folks have about how sobriety might impact their life, and some key take aways for anyone who might be on the sobriety spectrum.

For references and resources, check out Margy’s blog on sober curiosity.

Connect with Margy at Margy@RoomToBreatheChicago.Com

Interview transcript {edited for clarity}

Sam (she/her): Good morning, Margy. It's good to see you, and thank you so much for joining me today.

Margy (she/her): Thanks, Sam.

Sam: So today, I'd love to have you introduce yourself, and we're gonna talk today a little bit about a follow-up to your blog on Sober Curiosity. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about you, what you'd like to tell folks about the work you do, and what motivated you to write this blog.

Margy: Thanks, Sam, and yes, I'm having a little bit of internet issues today, so if I cut out a bit, I apologize, but hopefully we can keep working through it.

So I wrote this blog in January because Dry January has become a movement in the last decade, and it's kind of become a time where, you know, with the new year coming, people often talk about intentions, and it's become a period of time where some people choose to either abstain fully from alcohol, or decrease their use and see how it feels, and this has become increasingly popular with…like, younger generations, especially young adults, so in their 20s and early 30s. And I happen to have, as a therapist, quite a few clients who are in their 20s and 30s, and this has been coming up a lot in my last few years here at Room to Breathe, and doing like, individual and group therapy work.

And so it's something I've gotten more curious about myself, as I've been supporting clients, kind of in exploring and just…getting curious about their substance use sort of patterns and, you know, what are the times they're wanting to use a substance, drinking, smoking, whatever it is. How they feel before, during, and after. And in particular, I think with the state of the world right now, there has been a, you know, as our nervous systems are all holding so much, I think it's not a coincidence that this has also been coming up a lot recently, people wanting to figure out ways to feel better and more connected and regulated in their minds and bodies. And also just be able to kind of connect or interact with people in ways that feel really you know, grounding or intentional, and not always sort of relying on substances as a way to sort of socialize or be in community together. And that is not saying there's anything wrong with that. We'll talk about that today. But I think this sort of desire and need to just have that increased sort of attunement with self and others.

So that's what led me to write the blog post, and I also just as a clinician have some experience doing substance use work in sort of higher levels of care, like, facilitating IOP programs. I worked in a hospital setting for a while and did a lot of assessments with folks, and different support, so it's been something that I've always been really interested in like, as a clinician, and then personally, I also just have been on my own sober curiosity journey in the last year. It's been a little over a year now, and I had started a new medication, and one of the side effects of that medication is… or one of the things that they say is to not drink alcohol, because there can be interactions. And so I was like, well, this could be an opportunity for me to see how that feels. And it's been…very illuminating, and I think also kind of going through that journey myself, in parallel with supporting clients through it, has been really interesting, and also kind of where I'm at now is - after seeing so many benefits of decreasing my own use. It's just made me more passionate about being able to share some of that with others. Different tools and resources, and so that's what the blog really focuses on, is just offering a few of those. There's so much great content out there. But I just tried to kind of distill it down to the ones that I have found most helpful for myself, and then also for clients as well.

Sam: Beautiful, yeah, thank you for sharing. I think it dovetails nicely into the next question I have for you. On a personal and professional level, what do you see as the less obvious benefits of increasing awareness of one's substance use or engaging in sober curiosity or mindful moderation, however you want to put it?

Margy: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, some of the obvious benefits, which I write about in the blog, right? Physical health reasons, financial, you save money, which is great, and just like you hear a lot about, sort of, general mental health support, like alcohol is a depressant, which many, I think, people have heard.

But I think some of, you know, in addition to those benefits it's such a great opportunity to kind of get sober-curious to learn more about yourself. Kind of really using some of those mindfulness practices, and sort of building awareness around some of the patterns in your life that you may have that you might not even realize are happening, so a great example of this is…and there's been a lot of different folks that have talked about this, and both in sessions with me, even just other people in my life, that’ve been sober curious. When you start to get…you know, when you decrease alcohol use and start to notice some of these, or tune into some of these patterns, you'll see, oh, I can really notice and feel the difference when I am consuming, let's just go with alcohol, like, when I'm having a drink at dinner. Like, I'm having a nice glass of wine as an example, with a meal and a friend. And I have one glass, and I notice how that feels, and I think about how I'm, you know, feeling in the moment with the friend, and afterwards. And then you start to think about, okay, when I'm at home in the evening after a stressful day of work, and I'm having a craving or an urge to drink, or to have something, you know, where is that coming? You know, what am I trying to fulfill, I guess is what I'm getting at here. And so curiosity around, like, what purpose is the substance serving for you in these moments. And I think it can become so illuminating, I can speak for my own experience, like, when I decreased use and I've talked with clients about this also, I realized how much I would rely on alcohol for times of boredom or stillness, and, like, using it as a way to sort of fill the space and time. And it shifted, I think, when I started to just, like, have awareness around that pattern.

It also made me appreciate, like, the times occasionally I will choose to have a glass of wine or a beer, like, a beer with pizza, or whatever it is. And it's pretty rare for me now, just because I generally have felt a lot better without alcohol. It's so… it makes me appreciate it a lot more.

But then I also just have been able to really notice the way my body, my nervous system, my emotional regulation also feels different when I'm using it and moderating it in these different ways.

And I think that piece of it, sort of this increased, like, self-attunement, and knowledge of kind of how your body reacts to the substance, but also why and when you're using it and for what purpose is so helpful, and it can be really empowering, too. That's something that I've talked with clients about. Like, it feels really good to sort of… I just had a client recently talk to me about how good it felt to be able to kind of…it made her even appreciate, sort of, that glass of wine more when she was doing it at this dinner, or whatever circumstance it was. And just having one, it's like, it felt good, it tasted great. She was in community with people, she still felt very present.

And then sometimes you may choose not to, because that's the only other piece I was going to add. Something that I've talked with clients a lot about is also having… kind of noticing and checking in with yourself, perhaps before deciding to use a substance, like, why am I wanting this right now? Am I wanting to really enjoy how this, like, tastes with this meal, or to do a wine tasting, whatever it is. You know, or am I doing it because I have a really uncomfortable emotion right now that I don't really want to feel? Or I'm just bored. And, once again, to everyone out here, there is no shame if we use substances in those moments. At all. And that is our right to do, you know, there is no problem with that, it does not make you a bad person. I'm here to unlearn all of that shame. But it's such a… it is an opportunity. And can feel really good to just get curious about it and learn more about yourself. And then that ties back to what I was saying earlier that I think another less obvious benefit is just - I think all of us need more opportunities right now to feel more regulated and connected with ourselves and with others. And I've talked a lot about with folks and really have picked up on the theme that…just that increased presence and awareness of being able to be in community with others, you know, without the use of substances can just feel really, really grounding right now in a different way.

So yeah. That's my answer to that question.

Sam: Yeah, I really appreciate that, both in…you know, thinking about how mindfulness practices in general, which this sounds like, yeah, it's just very aligned with being present with yourself in the moment, how that can support you in so many other ways, particularly in this moment where we're experiencing so much collective trauma and activation in our communities, it's a way of coming back home to yourself. That's a really beautiful way to put it.

You've touched upon my next question a little bit already, but I'm curious if you could elaborate a little bit how therapeutic work can support folks who are sober curious, because people might be thinking that they have to do this all on their own, or wondering what it is therapy could offer them on this journey.

Margy: Yeah, so a couple pieces there that I want to name. The first is, I mean, as a therapist, I'm very supportive of talk therapy as being a, you know, a great way to process, you know, what your, kind of, thoughts are around your relationship with substances, why and how you want to get curious about that. And so a couple things that I wanted to offer. One, I just want to give this caveat, and I have a caveat at the start of my blog as well, but I do want to name that we all have different relationships with substances and how they interact with our body. And so, I always, as a therapist that does quite a bit of, like, sober curiosity work, and doing it from a harm reduction perspective, which means we are just trying to, you know, create a safe environment within the therapeutic relationship and in your life, where you can explore wanting to reduce use. But the goal, perhaps, is not, you know, abstinence only.

Now, the reason I say this caveat is that there can be…with a dependence on alcohol or other substances, where your brain and your physical body, like, need it, there can be a lot of very severe repercussions if you all of a sudden, you know, decrease use without consultation of a medical provider. So I just wanted to put that out there. That's something that, as a therapist, we also can help assess for someone. Especially those of us like me, at least, who aren't… I've had different, you know, trainings and knowledge around substances and the effect in the body, but I don't have a license or a specialization, a formal specialization in that area, so I always…I often am coordinating with other providers, like doctors, primary care providers, sometimes providers in a higher level of care, if that's something that this client needs. Like, I have some clients that have done an IOP program, like, intensive outpatient program, or even residential, if they're needing to have a safe environment where they are decreasing use with the support of medical professionals. So I just wanted to kind of give that also as a… and if that's ever something you are, you know, worried about, concerned about, wanting to talk about, like, bringing that into your therapist, you know, please do that, especially if you have a good rapport with your therapist. That's a really, really important conversation to have, and you don't have to do that alone. This is something that your therapist can support you with. Whether, you know, if you're needing that higher level of care, they can also help connect you and refer you to different supports. So that's one piece of, sort of, a higher level of care that's needed.

For my folks that don't have…and I always am hesitant to say diagnoses, but, like, if they don't have a physical dependence, an emotional dependence on alcohol or substances, like, in a way that could be more physically concerning. What I'll often do with them in session is sort of create, like, a mindful moderation plan, which sounds very formal, but, you know, it's very much led by the client, and really the goal of this is, I think, about and I support clients in identifying you know…what are their intentions for even getting curious about decreasing use? Where is this coming from? How does this connect to who they are as a person, their values, and the life they want to live. So, sort of starting there, and then being able to break down into steps of, you know, what are you thinking? Like, what could decreasing look like for you? How do you feel when you think about that? What… and we talk a lot about…a theme that often comes up is, like, how other people will respond. So we often, like, think about, kind of, holistically what you want your life to look like, why this is coming up for you now, and then sort of breaking it down and talking through all of the kind of aspects to then sort of making that happen for you for yourself.

So, we talk a lot about social situations and navigating different environments, friendships, relationships. We also…I often do a lot of, like, pretty tactile planning around, okay, you have an event coming up, and I hear from you that, you know, what we've been talking about is that you really don't want to have more than two drinks for whatever reasons we've already talked about. Why… what's motivating you to do that. And then what we'll do is talk about, okay, great, let's look up the bar, or the restaurant you're going to. What are their NA options, their non-alcoholic options, what are other options they may have? And for some folks, we don't get into that specific, but some I do. I think that's something that, you know, you can also just know as an option, you can get into those type of specifics with your therapist, because sometimes it can be really helpful, and what we talk a lot about is, like, having a plan. And knowing, kind of, what you want to do going into some of these situations.

Similarly, talk a lot about at home, when you're either on your own or with partner, or other people in your household, and it's that Thursday night. And you're feeling overwhelmed from work and life, and you're having the urge, what are things you can do at home? Not in a social environment. And this is where I really get into… I love urge surfing. This is one of the resources I have in the blog. But essentially, it's a meditation or a meditative practice. There's an actual recorded meditation I link on here that I love if you'd like to do an 8-minute guided meditation, but essentially what Urge Surfing is, is it's recognizing the urge. Kind of locating where it is in your body, describing the nature of it, and then you sort of do a brief visualization. This can…literally, you can do it yourself. It's like a, I am riding a wave. I am feeling this urge, I know where it's coming from, I'm having, you know, uncomfortable emotions that I don't want to sit with in my body. And I am wanting to use a substance to help with this. And then basically, you ride the urge and kind of stay grounded and in the present as you're having it, and it will go away. I often say it takes about 7 or 8 minutes. That can vary. Sometimes it's shorter or longer, but if we can do some brief mindfulness practice, through an urge or a craving it will end. And the hardest part is getting through it, but that's where this visualization, I think, is such a wonderful way to do that.

So we often will talk about that, and of course, that might not be the right fit for everybody. We talk a lot about replacement activities are also… one of my favorites is, like, what's something else that can give you dopamine? Let's get you that dopamine hit. Can it be, like, some great music you can dance to? I almost wrote this in my blog, and I didn't, but nerd clusters have become a favorite. For some reason, I have multiple clients… I have 3 clients that separately talk to me about NerdClusters, which is so funny. And I love it, and I have to be honest, like, after everyone's talking about it, I was like, I'm gonna get some of these and try it myself, and they are so good. Shout out to NerdClusters.

Sam: So we’re not sponsored.

Margy: We’re not sponsored, and I know there's a whole thing of then sugar. We're talking harm reduction here. You know, if, like, you could eat a couple nerd clusters instead of having 3 drinks, like, you know, that's great. That's at least what I've heard from clients, is like, yeah, I get a little sugar rush, but like…wow, I sleep really well at night. I feel just so much more clear-headed, you know, I'm not getting the depressant in my system.

So those are just, like, a couple examples of kind of what we do in session together. And how I support folks, and then just finally, I wanted to say, like, sober curiosity, like, this… those are examples, but it really looks so different for everybody. There is no right or wrong way to approach this. And so I think, really, which is what we do as therapists, but it's really meeting the client where they're at. Understanding, kind of, what's getting them curious about substance use, and then supporting them in, like, making a plan.

The other thing I was gonna say is there's a lot of great apps out there, too, for those that like to have some tech support, like, Less is one that I recently heard about that I didn't put in my blog. But I do have a client using it, and so that's sort of, like, a way to… if people want to track or have, like, another form of accountability, I know that's… some people are like, keep me off my phone, that's the last thing I want to do, but there are just so many great tools for folks that like that kind of additional support, and then the last, last thing I'll say…

There's also some really great, especially in Chicagoland area, some really great support groups, or different like, sober or sober curious communities that you can be a part of. I linked at the end of the blog a few different places in Chicago, like, coffee shops that are open late, or bars that are alcohol-free. Other kind of community spaces that I really recommend checking out, uh, if that's something that you'd be interested in.

Sam: Beautiful, yeah. The piece that I'm taking away, too, from what you're saying is you know, when I think about… addiction, in general, or heavy substance use, I think shame can often come along with those behaviors, and I think it sounds like the work in therapy is helping to understand the underlying causes of the behavior to peel back the layers of shame and secrecy, because I always say to clients, shame lives in the shadows, it feeds on secrecy. And when we're in space with someone else, and we're talking about it, and we're compassionately trying to understand our behaviors, that can help disrupt the shame-use cycle that so many clients get into, and then you're in space together, you're talking through this, and you're creating a plan that actually works for the individual. And oftentimes isn't just abstinence only. Like, we tend to get in other spaces, it's about how do we reduce the harm. How do we support you in your life with the goals that you actually have? So it just sounds like it's such a… yeah, like a tailored and specific approach to this work that I think folks can find really helpful in moments when they're feeling really lost and confused, or just concerned about how substance use is affecting their life.

Margy: Yeah, and I just wanted to quickly say to you, Sam, yes to everything you said, and I mentioned this also in the blog, but as a… and I know you are too, as a social worker, as someone who is very systems-focused, you know, we are humans in our environment. We talk, and I talk a lot about, yeah, how much our society and different systems that we're a part of really normalize and push substances a lot, so of course we have, you know, that can create, you know, they normalize doing it, and then they're like, oh, this is bad for you. So it's very, like, deeply ingrained. I highly recommend - this was actually a recommendation from another therapist, Erica, at our practice, to me - “Quit like a Woman: The Radical Choice to Not Drink in a Culture Obsessed with Alcohol”. It is excellent, and I recommend it, you know, Holly Whitaker takes a stand in this book of, you know, not drinking, and that's a choice she's made. I think you can read it and, you know, I read it as an example and didn't feel this, like, pressure for abstinence only. But she offers a really powerful, like, societal framework and narrative of how alcohol has been normalized, and even marketed in certain ways that has created reliance and dependence. And so, yeah, that really contributes to this shame, and I wanted to quickly, if you don't mind, share one quote that Holly says in this book, and she offers a great, like, very feminist-centric recovery model, which I think is beautiful. I have brought this into my own work. I highly recommend. And I should have referenced this, when I was even sharing what I do with clients, I pull a lot from this framework of, like, working with core beliefs, you know, getting at root causes, and then kind of creating recovery or a plan that fits you.

But one of the quotes she has in this book that I really like is… and she's referring to this feminist paradigm for recovery. She writes, “The paradigm isn't solely about abstinence, it's about finding the lives we've got buried within us and living those lives out loud. This is about finding the truest version of ourselves and letting that lead the way.”

And so I think that was very, you know, that really stuck with me, and it resonated with me. I think this felt very, for me, in the way that I approach therapy, like, this felt a lot more… kind of in line with that compared to some of the other very… to your point from earlier, kind of…frankly, more like shame-based abstinence-only, you know, programs or language, and this is what I loved about this, she says something along the lines of, like, the moderating alcohol is, like, a - not a side effect, but something that happens as a result of this journey, and being able to connect with yourself, this whole process of getting curious is, like, really what it's all about for building that self-attunement, unlearning some of the shame. And then, as a result, we can, you know, have less of a dependent relationship with alcohol and feel more empowered. And or fill in the substance. I think a lot of this, I know I've been using alcohol, but I think a lot of this could also apply to weed use, other substances. So, I just wanted to highlight Holly's book as another resource, too.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I am curious if there are any common misconceptions that folks have about how sobriety will impact their life, or fears that folks speak to that you might be able to challenge?

Margy: Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot, right? I kind of alluded to one earlier, I think this is actually the biggest one, I would say, that I hear, is just a lot of fear or worry about perceptions of others. Or rather, how others will perceive you as a person who is sober or sober curious. And that's huge, and I resonate with that personally. It's awkward, it's hard, and I will even add as someone who identifies as being a woman, and presents, you know, that way. I, you know, if I say I'm not drinking, I'll sometimes even get asked if I'm pregnant. You know, there's a lot of assumptions, and there's sort of this… it is more assumed than not. You know, it is more common that someone will drink, and so it is unusual at times when there's someone who doesn't. And so I think that piece and the awkwardness around that, navigating those conversations, being worried about what people may think about you, comes up a lot. And what I’m - I'm sure that, you know, there's a lot of nuance here. Depending on people's, kind of, friend groups and family and community, what lines of work they're in. There's a lot of nuance to unpack.

What I will share is: I don't think… I'm trying to… I want to make sure I'm accurate about this. I don't think I've had a client yet who has had such a negative response from other people, in the way that they were anticipating, if that makes sense. So, I think more often than not, we are… it's like this self-perception, like, we're so worried about other people and what they're thinking about us that it can almost over-inflate, and the reality is once you're able to have that…this is where that planning comes in, like, that conversation with people in your life, and we talk about how you can do that. Once you have your plan of, like, sometimes it's just having a cold drink in my hand that can, you know, ease some of that perception. And then when you get into it, people really don't care. And I think also the other factor here is, like, being able to inform people, or feel empowered to share, yeah, like, this is why I'm doing it. I feel great, um, you know, no judgment, you do what you want to do, but, like, this is working for me. I still want to be here, I'm having a great time. That's the other thing that I hear a lot, is people being like, oh, you're not drinking, are you having fun? And people being like, I'm having a great time, I'm present, I'm enjoying this mocktail, or this soda, whatever. And I'm gonna, like, drive myself home tonight, or I'm going to go to bed at 10 o'clock and wake up feeling great. So, I think sometimes those initial conversations are awkward, and there's this conception that that's gonna continue coming up and happening. I think for most people, that's not often the case.

And I think… so that's one thing. And the other conception… misconception I hear a lot is that I'm gonna be so bored. I'm gonna be so bored. And that is not always true. I think there is an adjustment period where you might have that emotion or response come up. But I hear a lot from clients, like, this is actually super fun! I've, like, tried things I've never done, I've gotten back into board games, I discovered nerd clusters, whatever it is. I have been to spaces in Chicago I haven't been yet. I'm reconnecting with people you know, for daytime things, like brunch or coffee, or scheduling things that aren't always in the evening, and I'm getting better sleep, and so, actually, I just feel way better because I've, like, tried some new things, and the boredom has been an opportunity to play and learn and be with people in a different, more sustainable way.

And so I think… is there anything else I wanted to say about that? I don't think so. I think those are the big misconceptions that I often hear about. Yeah, like, just a big one being I not gonna have as much fun. I'm not gonna be perceived as fun. I'm not gonna have fun. And I think what we find is, like, I think the reframing of alcohol, is it's a source of dopamine. And, with some, like, right, longer-term depressants and other negative repercussions attached to it, and I think once our brains begin to sort of adapt and build those new pathways, and realize, oh…like… I'm trying to think of an example. Having a board game, a sober board game night with some friends. Eating nerd clusters and watching heated rivalry, whatever. Like, I got some great dopamine from that, and then I got a great night of sleep, and this feels so much better. And this is just an example. I don't want to say that this is the way it is for everybody, but I think that's where that misconception comes in, is people start to do it and realize, wow, like, this actually feels really good in a way I wasn't expecting.

Sam: Yeah, yeah. And I think we're… I was just listening to something about how, like, generally the trends of drinking are shifting, and people are drinking less than ever before, and I think sometimes there's the misconception, especially when there's been heavy use, we tend to be around people who have a similar lifestyle, that idea that we'll be alone if not, and what I've witnessed with clients is that folks might have a reaction to you shifting your relationship with alcohol or marijuana. Oftentimes, that's a reflection of their own relationship and discomfort with having to look at their relationship with that substance.

Margy: Yes.

Sam: But more often than not, you'll find folks who are moderating their substance use. You'll find communities where this is more of the norm or the expectation, or you start engaging, to your point, in activities where this isn't the center or the focal point. And that you'll still find valuable connection, oftentimes more because you're not in a loud bar where there's loud music and a lot of distractions, it might be deeper, more meaningful, more purposeful connection that you find, even if some relationships fall away.

Margy: Totally. Yes, and I'm glad that you mentioned that, Sam, because that can happen. I have not… I think the fear of that happening that I hear from people has not translated, at least with my clients, into, like, reality for most people. There might be a couple friendships where that friendship shifts, like, maybe we're seeing someone less, and maybe there's a fallout, or a rupture based on it. But to your point, Sam, I think that also speaks a lot about, you know, where is this other person at in their own journey? And also, getting curious about is your relationship centered around alcohol? And what would it look like to de-center alcohol? What is left of the relationship when we do that? So I think it can also be illuminating in, like, a very healthy way. You know, there's grief there, too, but I think a lot of long-term, like, relational benefits, also.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, something that I've heard, too, is a reflection of, like, oh, I can only really be around this person if I'm drinking, and then I think it's about, to your point, looking at the quality of their relationship to begin with. And how that does or doesn't align with, that individual does or doesn't align with your values, or what you want in a friendship. Yeah, really good point.

Margy: Yeah.

Sam: The last question I have for you is just… I'm wondering if you could share 3 top takeaways from your blog, or things that…words of wisdom you wish you could impart to folks.

Margy: Yeah, I think if I were to distill it into a few takeaways, I would just say we're going for curiosity, you know, not rigidity here. I think the hardest part is if you're considering getting curious about your relationship with alcohol or substances, the hardest part's starting. And so I often say, you know, it's hard to start a new pathway in your brain, so takeaway is, you know, talk to someone about it, connect with your therapist, talk to friends, people in the community. You are not alone, to your point, Sam, this is the time, there's a movement happening. There are other people that are exploring this, too.

And so that's one thing I would say. And then also just, you know, continuing to… I just want us to continue destigmatizing this, like, sober curiosity lifestyle, like, more than ever right now with the state of the world, we need connection, community, attunement with others and ourself. And I think this is a wonderful way to be able, like, you know, getting curious about substance use is a wonderful way to be able to tap more into that and invest more in that, and kind of de-centering alcohol to use your language from earlier.

And then the last takeaway is there's so many resources that are incredibly helpful and affirming. And so I listed many of them, a couple books, including Holly Whittaker's book, The Urge Surfing Meditation, and some graphics, if you like to have a visual. And then also, I hadn't mentioned this yet, but, a couple of really great kind of journal reflection prompts around sober curiosity that I recommend checking out, or even bringing to your therapist if you want to have a more guided reflection and kind of kicking off that exploration. And then lastly, just some really great, you know, for those of us in Chicago, this is a great space to be if you wanna be sober curious. We have incredible cafes, bars, restaurants, stores that sell just NA beverages, and just a great community here for those who are sober curious.

So, you've got this. We're here for you, and reach out to any of us, any of our therapists at Room to Breathe, if you want to talk more.

Sam: Awesome, Margy, thank you so much for talking with me today, for doing the work that you're doing and, you know, I hear your compassion, your thoughtfulness, and I think it's really beautiful to have a parallel experience with folks that we can pull from as we're talking about this. I appreciate you sharing that part as well.

Margy: Thanks, Sam.