Episode 15 Coffee Chats: Dr. Kelsey Schroeder on boundaries and wintering

In this episode of Coffee Chats, Sam Allweiss, LCSW speaks with Dr. Kelsey Schroeder, PsyD. on boundaries in the context of the holiday season and beyond. They discuss Kelsey’s definitions of boundaries, how she helps her clients conceptualize of boundaries, common misconceptions around boundaries, and how to approach boundary work. They also get into why boundaries are challenging to maintain during the holidays, how the concepts of boundaries and wintering intersect, and Kelsey’s personal wintering practices. It’s a short episode but packed with wisdom!

Connect with Sam at Samantha@RoomToBreatheChicago.Com

Connect with Kelsey at KelseySchroeder@RoomToBreatheChicago.Com

Read Kelsey’s article, Wintering: Creating Warmth Through Boundaries

Interview transcript {edited for clarity}

Sam (she/her): Hi, Kelsey. It's good to see you.

Kelsey (she/her): Good to see you too.

Sam: So I know today we're going to talk a little bit about the blog post you put out. If you wouldn't mind introducing yourself, talking a little bit about your work at Room to Breathe and why you put out this recent blog post on boundaries?

Kelsey: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. My name is Dr Kelsey Schroeder. I'm a clinical psychologist here at Room to Breathe. I have been at Room to Breathe for three and a half years. And so the work that I do, I primarily work with individuals and also couples. I support folks working through life transitions, grief, a lot of like relational transition as well, breakup, new relationships, moving in together, decisions about marriage, family planning, things like that. And I also really love working with college and graduate students.

So yes, the blog post is about boundaries and holidays. I was inspired, both personally and professionally, full transparency. I know this time of year can feel challenging in terms of time management, in terms of just task orientation, demands and expectations that are placed on us, either internally and or externally, and that all of the narratives that are often really reinforced this time of year about what the holidays are supposed to look like, what your family is supposed to look like, who you're supposed to spend time with, what it's supposed to feel like. And I know through my clinical work, a lot of times it is not most people's experiences, and it can feel very taboo to talk about that or to name it, but I feel even more so that it's then important to process what other meaning can be made at this time of year, whether it be through traditions that have been passed down, whether it be new things that are oriented, whether it be relationship with rest or slowing down, but regardless of whatever focus goals are, it seems that boundary work is incorporated with all of them. And I think again, this time of year also provides us opportunity to see people that we maybe have complex relationships with, and it can be a great time to practice boundaries, but I think also a demanding time as well.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I do think that this is such obviously a timely blog post and something that's been helpful for a number of our clients.

I had a couple of questions for you that I think folks might be curious about. The first is, how would you define boundaries, and is there any specific imagery or metaphors that you found resonate with clients when you're talking about this in your practice?

Kelsey: Yes, absolutely. So, there are a couple things I like to kind of touch base on when we're working out, what are the foundational components of boundaries. So more abstractly, right, boundaries, how I think about it, boundaries are the space in between where you end and where someone else begins, or the space that you need to feel safe and comfortable in a dynamic within a relationship. Additionally, I think about boundaries and relationships as the space in which I can keep myself safe and also love somebody else, so how I love myself without harming somebody else, and how I love somebody else without harming myself.

And we do that already across the board, right? We can hold boundaries around mental resources, emotions, physical space, time, finances. We already, oftentimes, kind of have unspoken rules or expectations that we kind of navigate the world with. So sometimes it's about clarifying, like, what are somebody's boundaries, or if they've persistently been ignoring those boundaries, or other people have been persistently ignoring those boundaries. What is making it hard to have consequences when those boundaries are violated?

So another thing that I also like to identify with clients is that boundaries are not a punishment. It is a very common notion or narrative that when folks are brought up in a family, family culture, family system, with caregivers who maybe do not practice or communicate what healthy boundaries are. What is taught, overtly or covertly, is that creating space in a relationship is a punishment or means that you're pushing somebody away. So again, to your question about like, what is an image, I like to think about boundaries as doors, not walls. There can be some doors that you have wide open, there can be some doors that you have maybe a little bit ajar. There could be times where you have doors and relationships that are closed and locked. There might be doors that are closed, but there's a welcome sign that somebody can walk in, and you'd be open to that, right? That there are all kinds of ways that we can have different spacing in a relationship that helps us feel comfortable.

And the other important component is, how are we communicating those boundaries to other people, so that they know what to expect from us, right. Part of responsibility and care in relationships, which boundaries are a requirement, they are way that we show love and care, is that we are communicating where our boundaries stand with somebody else.

And again, last thing I'll say here too, boundaries are for us. They are not for other people. If I could really hone in on one thing, is that boundaries are for us. They are how we are going to engage, what we are going to engage with, what we deem as acceptable, what we deem as unacceptable, and if somebody does not respect those boundaries, we remove ourselves. We do not try to change or alter what someone else is doing. I think a lot of times, in kind of pop psychology or pop culture, boundaries have really been diluted to become this idea that it's oriented what we're trying to control what someone else is doing. No, boundaries are for us. They are what we deem as acceptable we deem as unacceptable, and how we are going to show up and engage or choose to disengage.

Sam: Beautiful, yeah, I think that's such an important point. Something I say a lot to my clients too, is that no one is going to respect our boundaries more than we do, and so if people are not respecting our boundaries, it oftentimes is also a sign that we're allowing them to be bypassed. I think that is such a key point that it's not about controlling other people's behavior, it's about talking or discussing and identifying what is it we're going to do, and how are we going to change our behavior to ensure healthier relationships.

Kelsey: Absolutely. And I think too, the other component of that is consequences. So a lot of times with clients, especially if clients have been doing some of that work in therapy prior to this current season, on this like, well, I did communicate this boundary, right? It's like, well, this person could use it to respect it. It's like, well, then we talk about, what is the maintenance of the boundary, right? Yes, a really important part of boundary work is communicating what that boundary is. That does not mean that somebody else has to like it or understand it. We don't have to justify it. However, if they keep disrespecting that boundary, they keep pushing on it, then you have to have a conversation about, what are the consequences of that? Usually that means that you're removing some type of resource, self, those kind of things, and again, not as a punishment, but as a clarification of this boundary also needs to be respected, and if it's not, I cannot show up in the same ways. I once heard another therapist say boundaries without consequences are just suggestions, and I found that to be kind of helpful, that like suggestions can be very useful, but if somebody else has not taken the suggestion, they might have to couple it with something else to ensure that emotional safety and well being is prioritized.

Sam: Beautiful. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. We talked a little bit about this next question, but I'm curious if anything else comes up, what are common misconceptions folks have about what boundaries are and what setting a boundary may mean for a relationship? So any other thoughts you have on that question?

Kelsey: Yeah, I could - just to really reinforce, I think, a misconception that boundaries are for other people, or they’re a way in which you try to get somebody else to engage in a relationship with us, as opposed to the standards and expectations and considerations that we place for ourselves and how we want to show up in relationships.

I think another misconception is that if a boundary is violated, that's the end of a relationship or the end of a conversation. And I must say that that may not be sometimes an important consideration, but if you're setting up a new boundary in a long standing relationship or those kind of things, it might be that it takes some time to kind of reorient of like, okay, well, what does this look like? And that's really important work that you can do in therapy, with close friends, people that you feel safe with, where oftentimes boundary conversations may not just be okay. This person is understanding it, they don't like it. That's the end of the conversation.

Now that does have some caveats. If a relationship is really unhealthy or really toxic or is really problematic, then it might be that you have a conversation about boundaries, like, that's the end of the conversation, right? You let somebody know what to expect from you, and then you maintain the consistency in that. But I think across the board, if we have a one size fits all about this is the boundary they have to respect, or I'm not going to engage in the relationship, I think that could also be a very ineffective way of showing up ethically in loving or caring relationships. That might be hard because we're layered and dynamic as people and other people are also layered and complex.

So I think boundary work. One of the reasons that it's challenging is because it is nuanced, and oftentimes isn't a one size fits all for every relationship in certain dynamics. Some boundaries you might have in all of your relationships, right? Like there are some boundaries around respect, dignity, basic expectations that are important to maintain, but some boundaries you might have in one relationship, you might not have in another, and that's okay. Relationships get to be different. Similarly, there might be seasons of life where you have certain boundaries with the person, and that through the relationship, through evolution, through again, growth, change, whatever it may be, you have different boundaries at a later date. Um, so I think sometimes, too, we think about boundaries like this kind of one fixed set rule. Sometimes that might be the case, and not always. Am I making sense?

Sam: Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, another thing that was coming to mind for me is that people tend only to identify what their boundaries are when they're struggling in a relationship, and what I say to folks like every healthy relationship that you're in, that you have, every relationship should have boundaries. You might not have to name them. You might just be in a relationship where there's a lot of respect and safety, but identifying that they exist is really important for understanding how to put them in place in other relationships, or that you can and that, like I think you had mentioned, that boundaries are a sign of love, that they are incredibly important and they're not to be used as punishment.

Kelsey: Absolutely, I tell folks too, yes, boundaries are one of the primary ways that we show love and care and respect to ourselves and to other people. I also tell folks that boundaries are price of admission for a sustainable relationship. If you want to have long term relationships, which we all need to survive in this world, boundaries of the price of admission to doing so, and the more comfortable we get in some of the discomfort of those hard conversations, the more we will see the benefit of depths and growth of intimacy and connection and safety that we all want to have.

Sam: Yeah, yeah. I really liked your other point too. Like we might get to a point where we cannot feel safe in a relationship in any way. But estrangement is not the first step, and it's the most, I think, extreme boundary someone can have if you can't have any safety. But oftentimes, estrangement is a sign that someone actually hasn't put boundaries in place, or didn't know how to put boundaries in place, and so instead, they completely avoided it, instead of using it as a last ditch effort, someone just says, oh, you're not respecting me. I'm done. But there are so many other ways and skills that we can utilize to improve a relationship. And that isn't the only way to move forward.

Kelsey: Absolutely. I agree with you. I think the other thing, and this kind of ties back into like how pop culture has diluted sometimes the conversation around boundaries, which is that they are…what’s the word I’m looking for…that like they are a one time set conversation, you never converse about them again, which is also not true, that, like oftentimes, we are having consistent conversation about boundaries, or loving reminders about boundaries, or those kind of things too - again that can be dependent on the relationship. If a relationship cannot be safe, then you don't, I would not encourage those conversations in the same way. But if there are patterns where somebody is feeling a little bit more burnt out or spread thin or oftentimes, I think a good sign, too, that you're not holding your boundaries is resentment is building, particularly in relationship where you'd be have not felt resentment in the past, or you haven't felt that depth of resentment, I think that's often a really good conversation to also have about expectations, potential grief, but also, what are the boundaries that you've that you've communicated? What do you need to be communicating now? Maybe what has changed, or what other things are you having a hard time either holding internally and or externally?

Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Really good points. You talked about this a little bit too, but making it more holiday specific.

Kelsey: Yes, absolutely.

Sam: What would you say to someone who struggles to set or enforce boundaries during this time of year due to desire - and I hear this a lot from folks - to keep the peace around the holidays?

Kelsey: Yeah, I don't think this is going to be a unique thing from me as a therapist, because I've heard other therapists also say it. But a question that I will often refer back to is, whose peaceare you keeping, and what is the ultimate goal?

Usually, if we're disregarding our own boundaries, it's because we are prioritizing someone else's needs, emotions. Again, the idea of peace, right? And that is not to say that somebody can't choose to do that for their own survival at times. But I think a more, again nuanced, dynamic conversation can be, what is the goal of keeping this peace? What is the cost of that on you, and are you willing to pay that cost? That's where the choices are made.

I think that's also where the reminder of being empowered comes into play and being kind of strengths based in our approach therapeutically, of where are we understanding and seeing the choices that we do get to make? How are we owning those choices and or how are we disregarding our own boundaries to your point earlier and maybe relinquishing or being very passive in our decision making process? So I think especially around the holidays, the question is like, well, whose peace are you keeping? What is the cost of trying to keep that peace?

And sometimes, too, I think it's important to recognize showing up in ways that are more disingenuous or inauthentic, especially when we’re starting to feel or maybe have been in the trenches of resentment, usually means that the peace that you're trying to keep is actually not going to come to fruition. Right? Like sometimes, I think Dr. Erica Schweitzer will point out, like, popping to fantasy of like, well, what does that actually look like, keeping the peace? Again. Not only what is that going to require from you, but like, has that ever actually been successful? If you need a week after seeing family of origin, whatever it may be, caregivers to, like, recoup emotionally, you might not be keeping the peace very well, right? If you leave it feeling very drained and you dread next year, that might not be the peace that you're looking to keep.

Again it's relative, but it also can be, you know, person specific. But I think the question looking to is like, what does it cost you to be in that space, and is the price too high, perhaps, for your own well being? And I think the other thing too that I will often come back to is how repetitive is this pattern? Because if they're talking about it again, therapeutically, if they’re talking about it with friends consistently, if it's coming up as something that is causing distress, then the strategy they maybe have tried is in the past, again, based on survival, basically, maybe was adaptive, historically, is no longer working for them, and it's okay to put down things that are not working for us.

Sam: Beautiful, yeah, I really appreciate that. One last question for you, and this one's a little bit more personal. But what are your wintering practices? And you talk a little bit about the concept of wintering, yeah, and what holiday rituals have you felt most grounding this year?

Kelsey: Great question. So a couple things for me. The first one being, I try to be very intentional with who I spend my time with. So oftentimes, what it looks like for me is spending time with close friends, my two dogs and some chosen family members. That also means that I'm really attentive about how much time I spend and like, what I need. So trying to be mindful, being slow, being considerate of what is my bandwidth.

I know that also for me, this time of year, I typically want to kind of burrow in. So I do try to be really thoughtful and intentional about like, saying yes to some plans, but being considerate about, like, are these plans with these people going to be rejuvenating? Is this going to be something that I find kind of fills my cup, or something I find really taxing? Some other things, I'm a really big fan. I do love the cold weather. So during the morning, when I walk my dogs, I try to not have any music playing, because I just kind of go and enjoy…the city can be a little bit overstimulating at times. But I find that in the morning I have more bandwidth to kind of enjoy, not having to have music or my headphones playing things like that. I try to go enjoy the cold weather. What it feels like to have, hopefully, the sun and it's been kind of gray out, but the sun on my face, feeling the energy of the city, kind of waking up in the morning, things like that.

I also really try to find creature comforts during this time of year. So I have my favorite blanket every day at work with clients. Have my favorite comfort blanket, warm beverages. I like making food that feels really good to my soul, soups, stews. I like to bake right now. So again, I think part of it is slowing down. The other part of it is being even more intentionally attuned to what is my body asking for from me. I know winter solstice was yesterday, so I was trying to be really touched about, like, moving slow and being attentive to light. So I would say all of those things. I'm trying to give anything else that really stands out to me about this time of year?

Oh, another really important thing, holding really firm boundaries at work. So again, like, look at, like, work life balance. I'll be off a couple days this week and next week. And so, like, I try to really be thoughtful about not engaging with work, taking the time to let my soul take a deep breath, and not feeling like I have to be productive or on or attending to the urgency that tends to feel very present this time of year around us.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, really powerful practices. And you, it sounds like you tie in the concept of wintering with boundary work, when you're talking with clients, can you tell me how you do that?

Kelsey: Yeah, so I think there's a couple ways. And again, this is more of, like a personal preference therapeutically, there's no right way to do it. But like, part of the ideology of wintering right is that our bodies demand us to slow down so they can be better attuned, because, like our circadian rhythm, things like that, are attuned to the environment around us. So part of wintering is about again, sustainability, right? What does my body need to care for itself? What do I need to feel rejuvenated? What do I need to be able to reserve my bandwidth, my well being, things like that, I think of boundaries very, very similarly. What do we need to sustain well being in relationships? What does it mean to think about consideration of bandwidth, relationally, time wise, emotionality wise.

The other thing I'll say about, or that I think about about a lot when it comes to wintering and boundaries, is it is okay to slow it down and think about it as step by step. I think oftentimes we think about boundaries - when we’re taught about boundaries. It's like, well, you just go say this thing and like, again, that's it. So much of boundary work is the practice of upholding boundaries. Wintering is very similar, right? Wintering isn't just, I'm going to slow down this one day, or I'm gonna spend this one day taking a nap, or whatever the thing may be, it's really cultivating the practice of caring for ourselves and caring for other people. And so I kind of interweave it like that. Does that make sense or am I getting too abstract?

Sam: No, that's beautiful. I really appreciate that. Was just very personally and professionally curious about how you did that.

Kelsey: Yeah, I think of them both too as kind of in a relationship with rest, right? Like so often, I think when we are disregarding our boundaries and relationships, it's because we are, again, like, either internally or externally, responding to some type of demand, expectation, rule that we were taught or internalized. And I think in wintering, we're kind of considering the same thing, of like, what is being placed on me as an expectation right now? What do I actually want to listen to? What do I want to prioritize? What feels connecting to me? And I think both really invite greater sense of connection with self, connection with, again, the emotional bandwidth, resource caring, resource guarding, but like, resource caring for like, what kind of things do I need? What kind of things can I offer right now too? And how do I maintain deeper, more intentional connection with self and others, which I think right now is actually part of the goal of the season.

Sam: Beautiful. Well, those are all the questions I had for you, is there any last words of wisdom that you'd like to share with folks?

Kelsey: Wisdom, I don't know! I think the other thing I'll say about this time of year too is it is okay to try and be figuring it out as you go. Yes, I'm a huge proponent of right, like doing the intentional work, having forethought about what you about what you want your boundaries to look and feel like, how you want to cultivate them. And also, a lot of healing is just practicing trying new things, putting yourself out there, being willing to be uncomfortable, have hard conversations, and being compassionate with ourselves, with other people as we're figuring it out, yeah, trying to maintain that the intertwined compassion and consideration for self and others, especially this time of year.

Sam: Well, Dr Schroeder, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. I'm sure folks will appreciate what I think of as wisdom.

Kelsey: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.

Sam: Yeah, and I hope you have a lovely holiday season.

Kelsey: Thank you, you as well. Thanks.