Episode 10 Coffee Chats: Dr. Erica Schweitzer, PsyD on Boundaries

In this episode of Coffee Chats, Ramya talks with Erica Schweitzer about boundaries: what they are (or can be), how they shift with you, how to deal with pushback you might receive from others over your boundaries, and how a little humor can go a long way.

Erica co-leads Yoga for Grief, a yoga + therapy workshop, on August 17th. Learn more + register here.

Interview transcript {edited for clarity}

Ramya (she/her): All right, welcome back to another Coffee Chat. Everybody today, we have the wonderful Dr Erica Schweitzer, who's a fabulous psychologist, but also our clinical director here at the practice.

I believe that we are going to get into a fun discussion about boundaries. I will let her take it away. Tell us a little bit about yourself, but also tell us about boundaries.

Erica (she/her): Sure, so a little bit about me. I've been practicing since early 2000s before coming to Room to Breathe. I worked at City Colleges of Chicago, I opened and ran a wellness center and a training program, which is how I know you, and how I know Sara, and how I know a whole bunch of people who were wonderful enough to work with me there. And I think boundaries is just one of those topics that is everywhere and nowhere, and there is so much work that you can do in it, but you can also have fun. Like, it doesn't have to, doesn't have to be a terrible thing. You can bring some sass to it. So it's, it's one of the reasons why it's one of the topics that I like talking about, and it seems like it comes up with everybody. So I don't, I've never met anybody who's like, I'm totally good. I don't need any help. My boundaries are solid. I've never run into conflict. There's - I don't ever have an uncomfortable feeling. I'm like, I haven't met that person yet. So.

Ramya: Does that even exist though? 

Erica: I doubt it. I doubt it, because it's organic. So they're supposed to shift. Boundaries aren't supposed to be brick walls. So they should shift over time, and you probably have to revisit them and…and do different things with them.

Ramya: I mean, and like God knows how our boundaries shift and morph as we evolve as human beings, but also as society around us evolves with everything that's going on now. Who knows what's going to happen a couple years from now or whenever? I think it's always a super important conversation to have, always, yeah, yeah. I know that you recommended the fabulous book “Set Boundaries, Find Peace” which I…

Erica: I could do a plug for it. It's on my bookshelf right here. 

Ramya: Yes, yes. Highly recommend for anyone that doesn't know that this book exists. Beautiful book, great way to get information and really start doing the hard work. But Erica, how do you usually get started with introducing boundaries to someone that maybe has no idea.

Erica: I think it usually introduces itself when someone is irritated, they have resentment, they are disappointed or feel taken advantage of. And it also, I think comes up when we find ourselves talking a lot about what other people are doing that we wish that they would stop. And part of the way I address it is, what is it that you are or are not doing to take care of yourself? Because if you're taking care of yourself, then what the other person does matters less. So it isn't that your bestie shouldn't be calling you at three o'clock in the morning. It is that your phone could be off and then it wouldn't matter if they called, and that's a boundary, right? That instead of - you can ask, you can ask your bestie and say, please don't call me at three o'clock in the morning. Or you can block them, and you can turn a setting on so that they can call you all they want and it's not going to get through. Or you can turn your phone off because you are not, in fact, a 911 respondent, and it isn't your job to show up, to put their house, like, to put the flames out of their house, or to hold their open head wound, right? You're not a 911 responder, so you don't need to be reached at three o'clock in the morning. 

Ramya: Mm, hmm, yeah.

Erica: But that boundary, I can't just tell everybody to do that, because some people do need to be reached at three o'clock in the morning. 

Ramya: Right. I think that goes into something that I remember you saying way back when, when you were still training me. Don't choke on your tea. 

Erica: Always a little worried what will come back to haunt me.

Ramya: When you were still training me, you had said something about like the Willy Wonka golden ticket. I think that's something that most people are familiar with, of like, we only have a certain number of golden tickets to give out, and those are the people that if there is a call at 3am we're literally going to drop everything and answer it, because it's a family member or really close friend, or it's like in eight or higher like five alarm emergency, and we're going to be there, but we're not going to give those tickets out to absolutely everybody. There's only a handful. And so I think that goes in a nice way about boundaries too, of how are we taking care of ourselves and who are we going to drop everything for to maybe break a few boundaries so that we're able to care for the people that are important to us. 

Erica: Yes, and for everybody who hasn't had this conversation with you and I about the golden ticket, one of the first protests I always hear from people as soon as I talk about setting a boundary, about saying no, about not picking up the phone, is: “but what about…” That little phrase in therapy is always a protest about, like, well, but what about this? Or what about that? And it's like, okay, boundaries are not meant to be brick walls. They're not meant to be that there's no changes to it. You get to have people who you will always show up and bail them out of jail. Always pick up the phone at three o'clock in the morning. But the point is, is that if everybody holds a golden ticket, then you have no boundaries, and you're going to be exhausted and worn out and resentful, and all of those relationships are going to suffer. But if it's just your mom that has that golden ticket, you're going to sleep fine most the time, right? Or if it's, if it's your kid, or, you know, you can give it to whoever you want. There just shouldn't be more than a couple out there.

Ramya: Right. Yeah. 

Erica: Proportionate to how many people are in your life. 

Ramya: Right. Really, I think it's like a question asked, Well, who would I wake up at 3am to answer a phone call from? I think that's like a really good way to engage about, like, who does get that golden ticket? 

Erica: Sure, also, I mean, part of that consideration is who's going to use it carefully?

Ramya: Fair enough. Yeah. 

Erica: So I mean speaking of speaking of phones, because I do think, like when you brought it up about how the world keeps changing, this is one of the things that the world keeps shifting, and so now people have access to us in a way that they never had before. So I grew up in a time era before answering machines, where, if you weren't home to answer the phone, it just rang and you never knew that they called you, like you just didn't know, like, I was gone, so I have no idea who called me. It could have been three telemarketers. It could have been my best friend every 15 minutes. No one but my house plants knew that somebody was calling my house. Right? And so then it moved to the answering machine of like, Oh, now I know who called. And now it's that there's an illusion that somebody should be able to reach me at all times, and I should pick up.

Ramya: Mhmm.

Erica: Right? And so we need different boundaries now than we did before, and that has to shift. But, I mean, there's a setting for someone to break through if they call twice in a row. 

Ramya: Yeah, even as a start that setting is beautiful.

Erica: Only very elite people have their name listed on my phone to be able to do that, because those people, if they call twice at three o'clock in the morning, they do need me, and I want to be there for them in that way. Everyone else is just gonna get my voicemail. 

Ramya: Right, right. 

Erica: Because it's on do not disturb, and they don't have the ability to break through that way, because they should be calling 911.

Ramya: Yeah. I know you said earlier about like taking care of yourself is an important part of deciding what your boundaries are and setting boundaries, too. Say a little more about that.

Erica: So I think some of that is about us figuring out what are like, what my resources are, what I have to offer, or what I have to give other people and my natural limitations, right? So…just trying to think of an example…as an older person, my energy is now different. My priorities about sleep have shifted, because I don't function well anymore if I don't get enough sleep. When I was 20, I could stay up all night, and so I could just do different things, but now it's - I am going to be a crabbier person, so I'm not going to be as loving, I'm not going to be as attentive. My brain functioning is different now if I don't get sleep, and so I have to make decisions about my natural limitations and this, I think people with chronic illnesses pay better attention to it because they're more heightened in their awareness of the changes of what they have to offer. And I think folks who don't have chronic illness or don't, haven't hit in a point with age or other limitations where they feel those limitations, they push themselves too far too often. So it is about figuring out, what are my natural limitations, what are the resources I have to give, and who do I want to be when I show up? So if I want to be a loving, kind, compassionate person, if I want to be able to give you my attention, then I have to pay attention to my natural limitations, and I have to protect them. 

So you and I were actually supposed to do this last week, but I started developing a terrible migraine. And there are some things that I can't move in my life that it's like, okay, take the medication, do what you can, like, buck up and like, maybe show up, but a little bit less of a version of myself, but it'll be okay. It'll be good enough. But this was something that we could move, and so it just didn't have to be as hard. And I can, I could spend my resources that day doing things that I couldn't move as opposed to something I could move. 

Ramya: Right. 

Erica: And so that's an example of, like, figuring out for each one of us what do I have to offer? How do I want to show up? And do I need to make an adjustment to be the person I want to be when I show up? 

Ramya: Mm, hmm. I think…thinking of like, protest or maybe push back on things that we might get from people we see or people in our lives when we're setting boundaries, is - I hear a lot of like, I feel so guilty for having put myself first, or doesn't that feel a little selfish for, like, not showing up for other people when I could have, even though I felt ill. What would you say those types of ideas, which, by the way, I've also personally said this to Erica, too. So it's not just other people. 

Erica: And you know what my first question is going to be is, how did racism, misogyny, homophobia or another ism tell you that you don't get to be the center of your own life. 

Ramya: Yep. Another one that you often go to is, Well, how'd that work out for you, though? Like, did it work out well, that you were sick and went about your day instead of taking care of yourself?

Erica: Yeah. Is your friendship doing really well when you showed up crabby and you were a jerk to them, like, is that helping? But so much of that, like, I feel guilty is because someone else is benefiting, and they told you you don't have the right to your own wellness, that's not okay. What'd you say? 

Ramya: I said the power to do something about it. Maybe. A part of it is about like taking your power back instead of like giving, like giving other people that have told you that you don't have the right to do certain things, but like, feeling empowered to say, No, I actually do have the right to take care of myself in order to show up the best version I can. Sorry, I cut you off. Go ahead. 

Erica: No, you're okay, absolutely, yeah, because misogyny tells women that they're supposed to work themselves to the bone for everybody else, and that their goal and purpose in life is to serve other people. Sorry, no, it's not. That is something that you do after you make sure that you're healthy. Because if your long term goal is service, if your long term goal is to raise children, is to have a family, is to be successful in a career, is to volunteer with your religious organization, is to help people who have less than you, like, whatever your goal is that is all dependent on you surviving and being healthy enough to actually do those things. So it's not selfish, it's practical.

And we can look at who has a privilege status in the world, and the messages that they are told, which is, get your sleep, get your food, get your workout, get your needs met, and then go conquer the world. But they are not told, hurt yourself for the value of other people. They're so like, no, no, you are valuable. Take care of yourself and then go conquer the world. Rescue this. Do this. Do that.

Ramya: Isn't it interesting? Yeah, how like different people, different kinds of people from different walks of life were told different things about their rights to their bodies and their boundaries in order to take care of themselves. 

Erica: Well, this wasn't the nature of our topic, but systems of oppression are perpetuated because some are doing the labor for others, and… 

Ramya: Right. 

Erica: So yeah, that's how they keep functioning…

Ramya: It all intertwines.

Erica: It all intertwines. 

Ramya: Yeah. What about individuals that have maybe given away more golden tickets than they have to give? 

Erica: Yeah, I know, that’s hard.

Ramya: Or like…yeah, that'll have like, let's say someone has very few boundaries and wants to do so much for other people that they do neglect themselves or not take care of themselves and all of those things. How would one go about setting boundaries and managing, maybe the side effects of that?

Erica: So there's some real distress tolerance and discomfort for ourselves that we have to navigate when we're realizing that what we have figured out has not worked so far, right? So I don't want to minimize, there is a payoff in which things start to feel better. But I don't think it starts right away. I think it is first uncomfortable to sit with, Oh, my God. I feel guilty, right? Like, where is this guilt coming from? And spending some time, like, unpacking that guilt, of, like, did I actually do something wrong? Or have I just been told it's wrong?

I think it's tough, because we do have to make choices in our life like we can't actually do everything. So you can have enormous dreams. You can have great things that you want to do, or ways that you want to be, or ways that you want to fill your time, but time is finite, and so you there will have to be choices about different things, and it's hard to sit with. I have to make a choice so something is going to get a no, which one's going to get a no, and I might have some grief about that. I might have some sadness about that, like that, that might actually be hard, because I wanted to be able to do it all, and to put some of those down and say, I can't have all of my dreams. I can't, I can't meet all of the needs of everybody. I have to put them somewhat into a hierarchy and decide to what extent I'm going to do each one of them.

Ramya: Yeah. 

Erica: And so I think that's just honesty about the part that will prevent people. But the trick of it is, is that not deciding is also deciding. And something I've said before, is like, if you have 15 balls in the air and you are falling apart and getting sick and you don't have enough sleep and you haven't been eating enough, and you are getting cranky and resentful, you can either choose which one of the 15 balls get put down on the ground, or life will pick for you, and life will never pick the one that you're okay with.

So I can either decide I'm going to I'm going to do less of this activity, or I'm going to spend less time with my friends, but I can keep the friendship, or I can keep going with the 15 balls, and some of those friends are going to decide that they've had enough that they don't like the way that I'm showing up, and they're going to end the friendship. Or worse, I'm going to be so tired and I'm going to be driving some place, I'm going to fall asleep and I'm going to get hurt, or I'm going to hurt somebody else. So when there is too much and I am not doing okay, either I pick what I put down or life will pick for you.

If you're doing great, fine. Don't, don't, don't worry about it. You didn't mean, like, if you have all the energy and you're like, This is amazing, maybe I could pick up another ball, like, have at it. You're great, you're fine. Don't mess with it. Don't mess with it. You don't have to. 

Ramya: Yeah. 

Erica: And that's where it's - it's the very individual, right? Because the boundaries are for one person, for their own health and being okay is very different than for another person, but everybody has a set of limits, and those do shift throughout our life, so what we set 10 years ago probably won't work.

Ramya: Yeah, when you talk about distress tolerance. How do you go about guiding folks through that to get to the other side, where we are more comfortable setting boundaries and like having less of this, like guilt feeling.

Erica: Well, I'm a big fan of the smallest ones first. Little things and delaying a little bit rather than saying no. So if you feel overwhelmed by your email, a boundary might be, close your email for one hour per day, and then you can open it up and you can do what can do whatever you were normally going to do, right, or start putting an out of office on your email so that it responds when people contact you and gives a message of like, hey, I'm away, right? 

So. Start with passive things that you can, kind of like set something, the phone is great for that you can choose settings, and then it does the work for you. And so you can have a little bit of breathing room, and you can see how little things change, or you can start to get feedback, but in an easier way. So break it all the way down to the smallest pieces first, because there's always going to be a couple of those steps where nothing has changed, but you've already gained something back, and getting a little bit of that taste of that reward.

DBT has tons to say about distress tolerance, far better than I do, but I think one of the things is to breathe through it and go is this an uncomfortable pain, or is this a killing pain? Because if it's not a killing pain, you don't have to respond immediately. And - 

Ramya: And a lot of us find out that when we do set those boundaries for things like phones or emails, that the world didn't fall apart like we waited an hour or a couple hours to answer. 

Erica: Mhmm.

Ramya: Which is enlightening, relieving, kind of freeing, but very enlightening.

Erica: Yeah. And I think it can also bring up some pain, because we start to realize some of the stuff that we did that didn't matter as much as we thought it did.

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: And so there can be some grief over this could have been different for me before now.

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: And so holding some compassion there. 

Ramya: Yeah, I think you said this earlier, like I can work hard and be in pain through this, or I can set a boundary and do this later and be a better version of myself, show up or - some things don't have to be that hard. I think you said this to me a couple weeks ago when we were talking in another meeting, too. You can choose to do it the hard way, but it doesn't have to be that hard, like you can ask for help, set the boundary, do the thing that's going to help you do it in a more effective and less painful way.

Erica: For the things that you can! There's some stuff that you can't. There's some stuff that you can't, where you have to show up, you have to struggle through. It's going to take a lot out of you, and there, there is no way to make it softer or easier, like there are those things in life, and that's fine, but knowing that we have to show up for those. What are the other ones you're going to fix? 

Ramya: Yeah, that's an awesome point. Yeah.

Another thing that comes to mind is when we do set boundaries, or when we start to set boundaries and other folks have reactions to the boundaries that we set. Can you speak a little bit to that?

Erica: Mhm. Yep, so if other people are accustomed to getting things from you, and they have no intention of reciprocating. They tend to get pissed. And I am not speaking ill of those individuals, because if I was standing in front of an ATM that was spitting out free money, I would be an idiot for walking away before it stopped. Right? Be like, you're just gonna give me free money. You're just gonna do stuff for me. You're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna pick up the phone every single time I call, you're gonna pay for the meal every time I ask. You're gonna, you're gonna come over. You're gonna, like, I would be an idiot for walking away from that before it stopped. So I'm not, I'm not being harsh on the other person. 

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: It makes sense that they would keep taking as long as you're giving, right? If you're going to give free labor to your employer by working 20 extra hours for no pay, like they would be an idiot to not take it, right?

So there's going to be a response when you stop, and the response of the other person, they are telling on themselves, because if their response is like, Oh, I'm going to miss you, like, okay, let's make sure that we that we plan time to get together. I know you don't have as much time anymore, but like, okay, let's pick a time. You tell me, is it better if I come to you like you've always been coming to me. Do you need me to come to you? Can I see you? Like, Oh, I like, I miss you. That was so much fun and like, that was really cool. But and I want you to take care of yourself. So how do we do this? Right?

Ramya: Yeah. 

Erica: That's a healthy person. 

Ramya: Uh huh.

Erica: If they're like, How dare you? How dare you no longer do all this labor for me for free. How dare you no longer pick up the phone with every thought that I have that I want to call you for, how dare you put your health before whatever it is that we're doing…instead of taking that that there's something wrong with your boundary, my hope is that you'll look at that and go, oh, I should have said this before, because this person's not on my side.

Ramya: Right, yeah.

Erica: This person is angry that I'm taking care of myself, that I'm trying to make choices, that I - maybe I'm experimenting, maybe I'm making a poor choice, but they support me in like, hey, you gotta figure it out.

So the other person's response, it's okay if they're uncomfortable, if they're like, wait, what? Like, well, I don't understand. What are we doing here? Like, this is weird. I thought this was fine, right? They can be confused, they can even have grief and sadness, or they can kind of be irritated, like, but I thought, I thought this was fine, that's all fine. You're waiting to see if they go, Oh, this is, this is so that you feel healthy. Oh, okay, all right, I can do that. 

Ramya: Yeah. 

Erica: Right? 

Ramya: I was just gonna say, what about those people that maybe aren't as healthy or have a lot of healing to do themselves, and are the constant pushbackers on the boundaries that we set?

Erica: Again, they're telling you more and more information about themselves. And here's the thing about boundaries is that boundaries and compassion are best friends. So if someone is persistently pushing me for more, and I don't have it to give, if I hold my boundary, I can have more patience with them. I can have more compassion for like, ooh, you're actually not doing very well. If you're impulsively calling me at three o'clock in the morning, you're not doing okay. Like, that's hard, right? But I can have compassion for you because I'm well rested.

Ramya: Mm, hmm. Mhm.

Erica: And our boundaries are about us and about what I'm going to do if someone pushes or tries to cross them. Boundaries are not about what I want or need you to do. I can ask you for your support. I can ask you to collaborate, but if you choose not to, it's my job, which means the phone has to get turned off. I need to leave the room if they start calling me names, right? I don't have to confront, I don't have to get into an argument, but it's my job to decide where is my boundary and what am I going to do about it if no one wants to help me with it.

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: And again, parts of that can be sad. They can be painful. There's a loss to it. We - it can be really painful to realize that someone that you care about doesn't have the capacity to care back in the same way. That they've got their own battle or their own barriers or their own limitations, and they aren't able to do this with us, and so we have to do it by ourselves.

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: And - I can keep that compassion for them because I'm not getting hurt.

Ramya: Yeah. 

Erica: I can be patient for their slower journey, right? If we're in different spots, I can be patient and say, like, I can see this person's really working hard on stuff, and it's just, it's real, it's real slow for them, and that's okay, but I can be patient, because I'm not getting hurt in the meantime. I'm not building up resentment. I'm not angry with them. I'm not irritated with them. I haven't been disrupted.

Ramya: Yeah, that's beautiful. I don't think I could have said it any better. 

Erica: I think about it a lot. But there's discomfort in there. It's not all an immediate payoff.

Ramya: Yeah, I imagine it's been a long journey for you to get here to be able to be so eloquent about this topic, too.

Erica: Mhmm.

Ramya: We all have our own -

Erica: I can look back over my life and see the… the wreckage of damaged and broken and wildly misgiving boundaries of different places and the ones I've crossed and the ones I've pushed on. Right? 100%.

Ramya: Right. Yeah. Just like we set our own boundaries or have to learn to set our own boundaries. Other people have theirs too. And so we can always learn a lesson from how we're treating other people and how we want to be treated in return. In that sense.

Erica: And when you hear someone else's boundaries, when they say no, when they say, I don't want to or I can't. Or no thank you. Recognizing the emotional distress that that - so, say it's you and me and I've asked you for something and you say no, but I'm very anxious, I'm very upset. I'm very dysregulated. Recognizing how hard it is to hear someone else's no and recognize like, okay, this does not mean that the relationship is over. It doesn't mean that they hate me. It means that they're taking care of themselves. And I have to figure out how to regulate not getting the thing that I wanted. And how to regulate enough to hear someone else's no and either switch up what I'm asking for. Right? Or… tolerate the distress or the grief or the sadness or the loss of whatever's happening, right? And take care of myself in that way. But. It is hard to be on the other side and to hear a no, especially if you used to get a yes. And breathe through it, right? It's the same thing. Is this a killing pain?

Ramya: Yeah. 

Erica: Or is this an uncomfortable pain?

Ramya: Right.

Erica: Like, I'm not dying. They're not telling me they no longer want to speak to me. They're saying no to something I'm asking for like okay, keep breathing. How do I adjust?

Ramya: Mhm. Yeah. Probably one of the most important lessons that I've learned in my life over time that I use for myself I use for the people in my life, but I also use with my own clients of like a lot of this is a healing pain or healing uncomfortableness or uncomfortableness that we have to hold space for. It's not a dying uncomfortable or like the world is ending uncomfortable, someone’s no right now might be a yes next time and that's their prerogative as is yours, right? It doesn't mean anything's forever. It doesn't mean they're mad at you, like you said it's just how it has to be for right now. So people can attune to themselves.

Erica: Yeah, absolutely. And typically there's more than one way to achieve something.

Ramya: Yeah. I think we forget that sometimes.

Erica: It's hard. It's hard. It's not easy. I think you can break it down into simpler things at first. And I think it's important to acknowledge like it is uncomfortable to set a boundary or to change a boundary. It's about the payoff and the long term. You can preserve relationships. It gives you more runway with a relationship. If you're struggling with a friend or with a partner or with a family member, starting to have boundaries that take care of you and help you remain calm and well rested or safe and stable give you more time and space to work on the relationship.

Ramya: Mm-hmm.

Erica: If you're getting hurt, it's going to be very quick and explosive.

Ramya: Yeah. Fair enough. As we wrap up here, were there any thoughts, anything that you wanted to cover that maybe I didn't ask?

Erica: You can have fun with it.

Ramya: Say more.

Erica: So, it doesn't always have to be boring and like stodgy. I think it's important to bring humor into things to kind of like make a little bit of fun of ourselves and other people to a certain extent, with love, right? About how much importance we have given to things that aren't - that aren't life or death. There's plenty of things that are life or death. You don't need to make jokes during those. You don't need to make fun of people.

But… I mean, if somebody…like the phone call, if somebody is like, I couldn't reach you and it was three o'clock in the morning, like, I was in a really bad place. Why didn't you pick up? I'd be like… Because I'm not 911. You can bring a little humor to it You could, your out of office could say hey, I'm out in the woods. I'm not available.

See, I said humor and then I'm not coming up with very good options for once.

Ramya: Oh, I remember one, I think there was this one time I had messaged you about something like on 10 p.m on like a Saturday or Sunday. And then I hadn't heard from you again, I think, until like Monday. And so I was like, hey, did you have a chance to look at it? And your response was - You mean the thing that you sent me in the middle of the night on a weekend? No, I haven't. I'm like, you know what? Fair enough, Erica. Fair enough. 

Erica: Yeah. Yeah, I was a little sassy.

Ramya: My bad. My bad. Fair enough. But you're right like that, a little sassy, a little humor, and still got the point across.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, nope, but now it's Monday. And so now I will. Right. 

Ramya: Yeah, yeah.

Erica: Yeah. So yeah, and it's so funny. I'm not thinking of anything that's funny. But having a little sense of humor about it, having a little mischief. One thing I do say frequently… so - folks who have worked with me or trained with me will know this. Is that when we're feeling guilty or someone else is trying to shame us because we've said no. My stance is… If they have crossed a boundary or they're pushing a boundary, they're the ones who brought the discomfort to the party. So you should be a good host and make sure you share.

Because people will be like, well, I don't want to cause a scene or I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable and be like - they already did and they had no problem doing it. Right?

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: I was… I was at a workplace. And somebody asked me a very inappropriate question like across a whole big room with people. It was a very intimate question. And so I made a sassy comment back and they got kind of red. And I was like, yeah. Like, yeah. You thought nothing of asking me this intimate question in front of a whole bunch of people? Yes, I said something sassy back.

Ramya: Yeah.

Erica: You brought the discomfort. You didn't think twice about bringing the discomfort to me. I can bring it back to you.

Ramya: Mm-hmm.

Erica: One of them that I always think is funny is when people announce in groups of people of like. We're trying to have a baby. And I always say, so you're having lots of sex. Good for you! Right? Like, that's what you're saying.

Ramya: Yeah. Yeah.

Erica: You brought it in. I am just… being a good hostess and we're sharing it. Together. 

Ramya: I love that.

Erica: Right? So that's the sass, that's the humor. And because oftentimes, if we can reach for humor, then we can see the funny in it.

Ramya: Yeah. Hmm.

Erica: And we don't, we can bring our anger down right? Like, I thought it was funny then that she said that thing to me across a room with a whole bunch of people because I could say something sassy back. And so I was like, I know you're like, you weren't thinking but like, this might help us.

Ramya: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Erica: And again, not every situation is that appropriate to do.

Ramya: Right. But it can help in some.

Erica: Yeah, I had a grandmother that used to ask me like, when are you going to get married? And I was finally like, when are you going to die? Like, stop asking me questions I don't have answers to. If you're going to ask this, then I'm going to come back at you! Like I don’t know grandma, it's not completely within my control.

Ramya: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

Erica: Right. But it gives that second thought of like, you just asked me something incredibly invasive and personal and you acted like it was okay. So I'm going to ask you one back.

Ramya: Yes. Yeah.

Erica: And you can have fun with it sometimes because there's plenty of times, because of power dynamics or safety that that is not an option.

Ramya: Right.

Erica: And I would never want to diminish the importance of those situations of where you're like, I have a retort, but I can't say it.

Ramya: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Erica: Because I need this job. Or this person isn't safe and it's going to escalate it. But my grandmother and I had a good laugh about it. Right. And she was like, okay, she goes, that's kind of funny. I'm like, yeah, okay. Right? 

Ramya: Yeah. Well, I think we're about at time, but thank you so much for a lively discussion as always.

Erica: Thank you. It's good to see you.

Ramya: You too. I love all of our chats. They're just so… heartwarming. And I always come away with - what did we call them? I think we called them golden nuggets of Erica. I think it's what we called them. I don't remember if it was here or at our last workplace. But someone said that.

Erica: Aww. That’s so sweet. 

Ramya: Yeah, I feel like I always walk away with a golden nugget from you.

Erica: That's very kind. I secured them from other people, right? Like I got them from other supervisors. We should all just… accumulate and redistribute all the gold nuggets. But I learned so many things from different professors and supervisors and friends And so it's like, just get ‘em in and then give them out to somebody else and be like, just let's all share.

Ramya: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Well. We all know in this world that we need to be supportive. And share. We could all use more of that. Thanks again and thank you for our listeners. Tune in next time. And we'll see you on our next coffee chat or ask a therapist blurb. See y’all next time.