Episode 14 Coffee Chats: Emma McManaman, LSW, MPH, on weight stigma and health at every size
In this episode of Coffee Chats, Ramya speaks with therapist Emma on weight stigma, health at any size, and intuitive eating. They cover internalized and experienced weight stigma (and the difference between the two), Emma’s research as an MPH, the history of weight stigma and oppressive tools like the BMI, and more.
Connect with Emma at Emma@RoomToBreatheChicago.Com.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Emma’s article, Unlearning Healthy: Why Weight Isn’t The Measure We Think It Is
Aubrey Gordon’s books
Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings
This is Ramya's last Coffee Chat with us! Thank you, Ramya, for leading these conversations for the past year. Our therapist Sam will be taking over in January 2026 - stay tuned!
Interview transcript {edited for clarity}
Ramya (she/her): Hello, everyone! Welcome back to Coffee Chats. Today, we have our wonderful clinician, Emma. Emma, introduce yourself a little bit.
Emma (she/her): Yes, hi, I'm Emma, I'm a therapist at Room to Breathe. I've been here for… I think just over a year, a year and some months.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: And I'm very passionate about, like, the impact of weight stigma and the pervasiveness of it. And once I get started, I can't really stop. But that is…something I work on a lot with people, and…Yeah. I can't stop talking about it, so I'm very happy to be here so I can talk about it.
Ramya: Oh my gosh, well, that's perfect, because we have, what, the next 40, 50 minutes to talk about it.
Emma: Amazing.
Ramya: So, when you're talking about weight stigma, I know we talked about it a little bit right before, but, like, health at any size…What else? What else did we just talk about? Intuitive eating a little bit, and then…just general stigma around weight, right?
Emma: Yes.
Ramya: Okay, go ahead. I will let you do your thing, and then I will jump in with questions if I have any.
Emma: Okay, thank you. And also, pause me at any time if I get too, like, data-driven.
Ramya: Okay, sure.
Emma: When I did my MPH, I did my capstone on it, so I feel like sometimes my brain can kind of switch into, like, research, data, all of that. I have to, like, remind myself to not just go off with that.
But yeah, when we're talking about weight stigma, I also like to distinguish it between, like, internalized weight stigma and experienced weight stigma. Because while you can really have both going on, the size of your body is going to cause, like, experienced weight stigma, and they do actually have, like, noted health outcomes that are a little bit different.
Yeah, like, the…capstone I did at Loyola was, like, measuring experienced and internalized weight stigma. And doing a literature review on, like, what are the actual impacts when we're talking about, like, mental and physical health.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: But… ever… I think, like, in the world we live… the world we live in today, like, everyone is going to experience either internalized or externalized weight stigma, just based on, like, all the different factors that play into how we are “supposed” to “be” in our bodies, and we are “supposed” to “feel” about our bodies.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: Yes.
Ramya: Yeah, so, um, why don't you go ahead and define those things for me?
Emma: Yes, so internalized weight stigma is going to look like a lot of internal narrative that follows the diet industry's messaging, so a lot of…critique of your body, critique of how you think people might feel about your body, critique of your relationship with food and movement.
Ramya: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma: And it's going to guide a lot of your choices.
And then experienced weight stigma is going to be, like - What does it look like for you to show up in a larger body? And, like, how you get treated by the outside world. So it can look like anything from, like, comments online to you or other fat people. And also, like, experiences in the doctor's office, like, experiences with actually experiencing discrimination.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: Um, so like I said, they can show up both at the same time. But it is important to note that, like, people in larger bodies will experience discrimination based on how other people perceive their bodies.
Ramya: Yeah, say more about what that looks like, maybe on a day-to-day level for folks.
Emma: Yeah, so it can even be down to, like, small things, like not fitting into seats.
So, of course, the most, like, common thing is, like, airplane seats. Like, you can get denied by a… anyone who works in, like, the airline industry, but, like, you can get denied and kicked off a plane.
Ramya: Right.
Emma: Yeah, and Southwest used to have a policy that was, like, you could buy two tickets, if you were nervous about fitting into the seat, and then you would get refunded at the gate, but of course, they have taken away that one, so it doesn't leave a lot of options for people, and traveling is already anxiety-inducing in and of itself.
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: So there's that, and also even just, like, if you want to, like, go to class, or go to see a movie, like, even that, like, what do you do when you don't fit into a seat? You're just, like, deprived of that experience.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: There's also data that shows that, like, I don't remember the exact author of this study, but there is a study that analyzes pay, and people in larger bodies do experience lower pay in an observable, it's like statistical significance. So even things like that, like, that literally affects your livelihood, and then also, like, what if you can't travel? What if you, like… what is the… what does it feel like to repeatedly not be able to go to events that require seating? Stuff like that.
Ramya: Um, I've also heard…and read about…people not getting in the same job opportunities as other people, like, impact on hiring or impact on receiving like, different projects, or maybe, like, being able to climb up the corporate ladder, or getting different positions, higher-up positions, or whatever, based on what you look like, or what size body you're in, too.
Emma: Yeah, and if we think about, too, like, the intersection of it all, like, a lot of people are already…getting racially discriminated against, and what does that look like when you're also in a larger body?
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: And also, like, kind of the most…They're all insidious, but one of the most insidious ones is, like, the rates at which all different people in the medical field have high rates of, like, fatphobia. So, like, even…There's documented evidence that, like, even, like, medical students, like, primary care physicians, um, physical therapists, like, do sometimes carry that higher discriminatory belief, and that can cause someone to literally, like, go to the doctor's office with one complaint, just get told to lose weight with actually no, like, real tools or support for that.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: And it could be neglecting a very serious medical issue, and…
Ramya: I was just gonna say, is I have known people in my life, also clients that have come in, talking about… there's something…wrong, right? Like, they feel something's wrong, they know something's not right, or something…not working the way it should, for lack of a better phrasing. And they go into a doctor's office, or medical professionals, wherever, and they're just told that you need to lose weight to fix whatever problem that you're having. But actually, it's a more severe illness, or some kind of chronic illness, or, like, whatever, that…was missed.
Emma: Yeah, like, what… and also, what does that do to your psyche when, like, you're going in, this is the ultimate figure of health, the doctor, you're just getting told to lose weight, it might even come off pretty, like, shamey. Like, do you want to go back? Probably not.
Ramya: Mm-hmm. Also, this losing weight phrasing is… yeah, it doesn't…Even if someone wants to lose weight, for whatever reason, it doesn't take a day or two, right? Like, what if they're having…physical symptoms or, like, some kind of illness or severe illness, or whatever. Losing weight can take months or years. What about, like, right now? Medication, interventions, other things that can be done for whatever symptoms that someone's experiencing now.
Emma: Mm-hmm. Like, there's…
Ramya: And we're neglecting all of it.
Emma: Yeah, and losing weight is actually so hard.
Ramya: Yeah!
Emma: And we're sold this thing of, like, oh, if you just, like, exercise, you just, like, eat right, whatever that means, like… you'll lose weight, and if you don't lose weight, you're lazy, you don't have, like, enough discipline, but everything gets put on the individual.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: And there's not actually a lot of support. We have things like GLP-1s, but, like, they're really tricky, and…they're kind of…
Ramya: Mm-hmm. And they can be helpful, right?
Emma: Yeah.
Ramya: They were originally created as medication for diabetics. And a side effect is weight loss, which can sometimes help people with diabetes. And weight loss can help certain people with some medical issues, but that's not…the main reason of why it was created, and…now we go into this whole rabbit hole of… using it to lose weight. As a band-aid, instead of…like a band-aid to cover up, like, topical problems, rather than digging deeper and seeing what else is happening, because there might be something else happening in the body, or some other mental health issue, too. And no amount of weight loss is actually going to…heal or cure those things.
Emma: Yeah, and, like, I totally understand the necessity of those medications. The perfect storm of, like, that and this kind of weird societal, like, revert we're doing. In terms of, like, thinness is everything, um…like, you have to take GLP-1s for the most part, like…for your whole life, if you want to have that… and, like, that can pose health risks. That can also, like, be really distressing if you go off of that and gain weight back, which is such a common occurrence.
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: So, it is very tricky to kind of, like, navigate the world that we're in now with GLP1s.
Ramya: Right, right. And - that doesn't, um…like, for example, say, an individual struggles with their relationship with food, or overeating, or something like binge eating, yeah some of those GLP1s reduce what we call food noise in… of, like, you know, the hormones and the neurotransmitters and the chemicals in your body are no longer signaling that you need food all the time, or it might help someone that uses eating food as a coping skill. But it doesn't permanently change what your relationship with food is. Um, so I guess as soon as you come off of it, or if you take it long enough to where your body becomes immune to it, those underlying, you know, relationship with food things are still there.
Emma: Yeah.
Ramya: And so you're not, like, improving your relationship with food if you’re only using these medications.
Emma: Mm-hmm. Like, it…God food noise is such a… thing, too, because, like, that is actually part of the intuitive eating model is, like, so much of the first steps of really, like, diving in, or, like, attuning to our hunger cues. Like, rejecting a diet mentality, which…is really hard in the world we live in. But then also, like, are we actually… feeling and validating our hunger. Like, are we feeling and validating our fullness? And the amount of food noise people are experiencing, also any other medic… like ADHD medications, any sort of history of disordered eating, what messages you received growing up, what messages are you receiving now? I could go on and on, like, those really disrupt our cues and create a disconnection from our bodies.
So I…yeah, like I said, like, I know GLP-1s are…it's not a very, like, either-or situation in terms of good or bad. But it is really difficult when we're seeing, like, kind of another thing thrown in there that can really disrupt our relationships with our bodies in terms of, like, how do we actually feel?
Ramya: Um…I was gonna say something else, and then it pulled out of my mind. But that's okay. Let's, um, talk a little bit more about the Health at Any Size model, like, your thoughts on that, and how you kind of use that with clients that come in.
Emma: No, I really love the model because I feel like every model that we have been introduced to has, like, a diet spin on it. Um, and the main thing I really like about a Health at Every Size framework is, like, you are rebuilding your relationship with your body away from punishment away from, like, a constant surveillance of your body and food, and moving towards a place where you are actually, like, joined with your body, and you trust your body. Um, it goes, like, really hand-in-hand with intuitive eating, right? Because it is, like, all about really tapping in. And it also includes exercise. So…it is called, like, intentional movement, which I just like more. It feels better. And it is about, like, finding what movement works for you, rather than kind of this just, like, you must run, or, like, you must hit this amount of steps a day. That one really gets me.
But it is like, okay, how does your body feel when you do this type of movement? Like, how does your body feel when you go on a walk, when you go on a run, when you swim, and how do we, like, connect to that? And move away from exercise being so tied into food. Like, if I eat this, I have to move this much, if I, like… yeah.
Ramya: Right. Yeah, and that food is something that we need to nourish our bodies, and that things are nutrient-dense and not nutrient-dense, and we need all kinds of food in our life, and we need relaxed movement, and maybe sometimes we need a little bit more high intensity movement, and everybody's body reacts different ways to everything. Um…That's actually what I was going to say earlier, is that it is possible to be healthy and be in a bigger body and not look the way media or the typical medical model makes us think we have to look like, or be like. Um, just because someone is in a larger body. It does not mean that they're unhealthy.
Emma: No, I mean, it's like my classic forever war that I'll be having with the BMI, because it is just like…
Ramya: Yeah!
Emma: It's so, like…I mean, oh my gosh, I could talk about it forever, but it is, like, it…we don't pay attention… if someone has, like, a higher BMI, like, overweight, obese, that becomes, like, the prime focus, rather than, like, what do their blood results say? Like, what is their… how do they feel day to day? Like, those are so much more expansive questions.
Ramya: Yeah, am I correct? And I think I…previously read that BMIs were actually not created as, like, um…and for anybody that doesn't know, it's Body Mass Index that doctors often tell you and use for the barometer of, like, underweight, obese, overweight, whatever the wordage is.
Um, but…I'm sorry, I can hear my baby crying in the back. Um, and I lost my train of thought.
Emma: We love him.
Ramya: Um, it's… it wasn't created as a barometer of weight, or health or healthy size, right? But I can't remember why it was actually created.
Emma: Yeah, so it was created by a Belgian…I have his last name written, actually. It's…I think it's Colette? Um, is a Belgian guy who was, like, an astronomer, a statistician, and he did something else. But it was created as, like, a measure of what is, like, the “average man.” So it was only men from Western Europe, white, and he just measured…yeah, like, height and weight compared, and it was just the average man. So it was not created at all to be a measure of health.
But wouldn't you know it, um, it started becoming a measure of health when MetLife, the insurance company, grabbed onto it.
Ramya: That I didn't know, okay.
Emma: Yeah, so it was a way for them to capitalize profits based on how much they will pay and, um, in terms of people's weight. So if you're at a higher weight, you're most likely to pay more, because they used BMI as, like, finding the desirable weight. But the whole thing is that, like, one…like many wellness industry companies and stuff, it is a way to profit. And it was based on, like, samples of Western European white men. It doesn't make sense. It's not… it's not an indicator of any way, but like…
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: …insurance companies grabbed onto it, which they also are not doctors. So… yeah.
Ramya: Right. Yeah, I don't know if you have any research about, like, how diet culture even started, or, like…what it even is, but if you do, please, like, share more about it.
Emma: Um, okay. So, I don't want to go too far back, but, like, in terms of weight stigma, weight stigma, I talked about this in my blog, um, for Room to Breathe, but, like, weight stigma did start as a way to, like, dehumanize Black people, at least in the United States. Uh, it was used as a way to dehumanize Black people who were slaves and their fatness…was then quickly, like, deemed as, like, oh, they're lazy, they have no self-control or discipline. And that's how it all kind of started. Um, as a tool for, like, glorifying whiteness, and for, um, like, justifying slavery.
Ramya: Yeah, lo and behold, it has to come back to…racism.
Emma: If you trace it back, you're always going to find it. Um, and so…
Ramya: Yeah, for real.
Emma: Yeah, like, it… this is no different from the rest, um, but… the way that it has morphed has always been a tool of oppression. But, like, so that started…And then eugenics was picking up, and…eugenics also, like, surprise, surprise, they did not like fat people.
Ramya: No.
Emma: Yeah, because of the same meanings attributed. And then we kind of had the, the BMI started getting widely used. Then we had the obesity epidemic. And that became a way… I mean, in my opinion, but I think this is documented, like, it became a way to, like, place so much individual responsibility on people for their own health. And that way, like, the systems that be don't actually have to enact change. They can just make a bunch of billboards that say, like, eat fruits and vegetables.
Ramya: Ooh, mhm.
Emma: They can spend money on that now they don't have to spend money on actually, like, providing resources to people. And using actual data. Um, also, like, the obesity epidemic has become, like, this moral panic.
Ramya: Mmm.
Emma: It's much less about public health now, it's much more about, like, fear, and…demonizing people that are of larger weights. And it doesn't actually have a lot of data to really solidify this huge panic we're having.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: And based on, kind of, the insurance companies and BMI, the wellness industry is, like, a billion-dollar industry. So, like, one…
Ramya: Mm-hmm. As is the pharmaceutical industry, which has a lot to play into all this too.
Emma: Yeah, like…we're learning all of these rules from people online. And if you look at someone long enough online, like, go through their posts, who are preaching all of this, they're trying to sell you something. Like, 9 times out of 10, you will see, like, a supplement in their, like, bio, or on their posts. And… it… look, if there was an option for people to lose weight that was really easy we would have found it by now. These supplements don't work, you know what I mean? Like, we have enough data and science to figure that out. But it's important to remember that, like, this has all, since the beginning, been used for profit.
Ramya: Mm-hmm. And used to marginalize a whole group of people, whether it's race, gender…um, like… identity, the shape of your body, the size of your body, like…
Emma: And disability.
Ramya: Looks… and, like, I would… yeah, disability, um, I mean, it reeks of…ableism, right? Um… all of it. A lot of marginalized communities, as are a lot of different topics that we talk about, like we mentioned.
Emma: Yeah, like, it's important, and like, in my clinical work, too, like, it's really important for me to bring into things of, like, who is actually saying this? What do they want from you? Do they care about your health? Because this… we also have no data to prove that, like, forcing these narratives, like public health initiatives, and doctors telling people, like, lose weight, blah blah blah, all of those things. There's no evidence that this is, like, lowering obesity rates. You know what I mean? So it's like…
Ramya: No. In fact, it's increasing mental health struggles.
Emma: Mm-hmm.
Ramya: And increasing…well, it goes into mental health. Anxiety, depression, disordered eating, relationship with food, like we mentioned.
Emma: Yeah, and…it's so important to just acknowledge, yeah, like, they're trying to make money off of us hating our bodies.
Ramya: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma: And that's, like, a tough pill to swallow, but it's no surprise where we are. But, like, they want to make money off of you.
Ramya: Right. Talk more about long-term effects of internalised weight stigma - experienced weight stigma, external… like, all of it. Talk about the long-term effects of all of it.
Emma: No, of course. Um, so, yeah, in my capstone, it was like…something that actually did surprise me was that… so, to have experienced weight stigma, you do have to be in a larger body. Um, but with… and something I do want to note, too, is, like, I'm not a fan of anyone saying anything about someone's bodies. That includes people who get told to, like, eat a cheeseburger and stuff like that.
Ramya: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Emma: The difference for me is, like, people who are in larger bodies do have, like, tangible effects of, like, discrimination, like you were saying, like, getting paid less.
Ramya: Mhmm.
Emma: That is going to be very tangible. But like I said, blanket statement for me, I never want to comment on someone's body. It's weird.
Ramya: I… it's inappropriate. It's weird.
Emma: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramya: Um, and actually, none of anybody's business.
Emma: No, like…
Ramya: Except our own.
Emma: Literally. Like, we live under this thing of, like, if I look at your body, I can know your health status, and that is so gross, and…
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: I won't have it. But yeah, so experienced weight stigma actually has a really high correlation to binge eating disorder. That was what surprised me. Um, and some of the explanations for that, like the main explanation that I do think makes sense is that, like, there is so much more pressure on people who are in larger bodies to, like, fix their bodies, to lose weight. Not only because they will receive better treatment by people, but they're getting told, like, that is the only way to be healthy.
But when you deal with so much food noise like that, it is going to be this cycle of, like, your body getting so hungry, you need to eat. Then you're gonna restrict.
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: And that's kind of the model of binge eating disorder, and so…that makes a lot of sense, but it did surprise me. But then you see really high rates of people who report internalized weight stigma, with anorexia, high rates of anxiety and depression. So they're gonna… you're… statistically, everyone is experiencing some negative mental health effect from the existence of weight stigma and the pervasiveness of weight stigma.
But those were the main things that I found in the research, and I was surprised.
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: But they're still all…really hard things to struggle with.
Ramya: Yeah, of course. Um, which then, in turn, can also turn into, like, you know, physical… organic health issues, too, because we know that the mind-body connection. It's an intense connection, and one that exists. Um, whether it's…food-related, or weight-related, or size-related, or not, actually. Someone that is in a smaller body that experiences, significant mental health issues can have a lot of physical complaints, symptoms, chronic illness, while someone that's in a larger body may or may not. We don't know, and everybody's body reacts differently to different kinds of stress, and environment.
Emma: No, 100%.
Ramya: Yes. Um, I'm sorry, did I cut you off? Go ahead.
Emma: No, you're fine.
Ramya: I was just going to…turn it into a little bit more of clinical practice, of, like, who we see and how we work with clients. You mentioned it a little bit before. Say more about your work with clients, about health at any size model, intuitive eating, you know, creating space where everybody can be seen, and we're starting to dismantle a little bit of that weight stigma.
Emma: Yeah, like, something that I like to do right off the bat, is kind of almost just do, like, a food history as well, and I'm not just talking about, like, Do you like to eat? Or whatever. It's like, what messages have you been receiving?
Like, so, something I hear so often is, like, my primary caregiver was really concerned with their body. Like, was on it with Weight Watchers, was on it with Atkins.
Ramya: I know Jenny Craig was a big thing back in the day.
Emma: Yes. There's, like, a very certain time period that if you're, like, a certain age, you experienced, like, the craze of your parents maybe the only time they would, like, treat themselves was with a snack wells, which, like, don't get me wrong, I loved sneaking -
Ramya: Mhm, I think that’s our age range, like…
Emma: I think so, too. Yeah.
Ramya: Like the elder to, like, middle millennial age, maybe.
Emma: Oh, yeah, like, it… it was everywhere. Like, people talk about the little, like, cardboard points counter… that, like, their mom would have from Weight Watchers, and, like…it can be really impactful even if you… even if you're not getting messaging from a parent directly about your body, like, you're seeing how someone that is your caregiver talks about their body. And that can immediately make you think about yours, so…That is always really important, is, like, what was told to you, what did you witness? Um, what became the rules early?
Ramya: Mmm…
Emma: So, like, I think, like, a lot of us…when we learned the word carb, we learned probably bad in the same sentence.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: Um, so that can be, like, even, like, third or fourth grade. So it is important to kind of be like, where did this come from? And, like, where have they gotten us?
Um, and then a big part, too, is, like, what are your food rules? So, like, going through them, and sometimes, too, it can even be, like, just a big moment of realization, to be like, Oh, like, I didn't come up with any of these on my own. I didn't, like, pick these based on how my body felt. Like, I picked these because…like, I was going to be unliked if I were to get fat. Or, like, my primary caregiver would never be okay with, like, this size of a body. So it's just, like, it can be a big realization even then, to be like, oh, okay, so none of these actually I makeup. And then it can move into the things of, like, how can we start to practice hunger and fullness.
So, like, a really popular one that's so easy is that when someone feels so disconnected from fullness, even just doing a thing of drinking an entire glass of water in a short period of time. Because that's a really easy way to, like, feel fullness in your body. Be like, oh, okay, so when I drink this big glass of water. I noticed that my stomach feels full, or, like, heavy.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: Um, and that can even be like, oh wait, okay, so that can be a tool for measuring fullness. And… because sometimes we get so disconnected, and it makes so much sense. There's no shame in it, that we do have to kind of implement little things to connect us to our bodies.
Ramya: Yeah, I mean, I do things like that with, where are we holding tension in our body? Sometimes we don't even realize that, like, our shoulders are up to here, or that we're clenching our jaw, or that, like, our ears are tight, and our… we're raising our eyebrows, right? I think that really goes into that mind-body connection that we were talking about earlier, of just being aware of how different things are impacting our body, and what is it that our body's actually feeling. Bringing ourselves back into our body, instead of…um, separating it, or what we call dissociation of just going into survival mode and ignoring signs that our mind and our body are giving us.
Emma: No, that's what I love about the connection between it and, like, somatic therapy as well, is that - there's even, like, I'll showcase intuitive eating workbook, which I highly recommend.
Ramya: Yep. Love it.
Emma: But it…There is even, like, an exercise, I think, early on in the book that is, like, a chart that's like, I'm going to write how every single body part feels. So, like you said, even, like, down to your ears. Like, we're gonna sit and check in with every single one, even if it feels weird. We're gonna… what does our elbow feel like? And even noting that, like, we often do have the ability to do that, but, like, we do typically ignore those things. You know, like, I don't always need to know how my elbow feels. But even practicing that to get the, like, muscle memory in, like…Okay, so maybe I never notice when I'm super hungry. Because I've even… I've coached myself into that, or I'm just a busy human being. Like, what emotions come up when I'm hungry? How does my stomach feel? How does my head feel? How does my neck feel? Like…It can really be those basics, and like I said, there's no shame, because I think we've just been discouraged from not only tapping into our bodies, but, like, also being able to honor our hunger.
Ramya: Mm-hmm. I think when we learn those things, it gives us the power back instead of giving our power away to these higher entities, that are trying to sell those products, or are trying to shame us because they benefit off of us not learning how to advocate ourselves from being back and aware in our bodies. And that's a really powerful realization, I think, of, like, oh, I am hungry. Oh, that's what my body feels like when it's full, right? And…These are all really hard changes to make, but powerful ones.
I am curious as to how clients usually respond when they first come into your office, and you're talking about this stuff.
Emma: I think that there can be a lot of hesitancy.
Ramya: Mm-hmm.
Emma: And I'm so understandable. Like, I think that whether people want to admit it or not, based on the world we live in, like, dropping the rope a bit with those, like, food rules. And…it can make people really scared of, like, how they'll be… how will they be perceived if they were to gain weight, or like…what do I do if I don't have these rules around food? And that's, like I said, so fair. Um, but the whole thing about, like, many forms of therapy and, like, reconnecting to ourselves is, like, having to acknowledge that, like, dieting, dieting culture, also, it directly, like, disrupts our trust with our body, because we live by rules. And also, we as humans, like, don't want to live without rules, in a way, because it provides so much clarity.
Ramya: Well, and that's why, you know, we're always being taught, even as children, that, like, discipline and routine, like, helps, and I think as adults, that does help us, um, in terms of, like, getting some kind of goal, or, like I said, a routine, or…something to do, because a lot of times, if we're idle, things don't exactly go the way that we plan to. We need appointments, we need structure, that's the word I was looking for. We need structure, we need…something to anticipate.
Emma: Yeah, and like, with food, it's like, how much…if we look at, like, in session, we'll often go over, yeah, like, what are your food… food rules, what are the structures there? And often, then the next kind of thing is, like, are these structures and food rules draining you, like…
Ramya: Mmm, like, how are they serving you, almost?
Emma: Yeah, and like how is it actually helping not only your mental health, but oftentimes your physical health?
Ramya: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I know we're winding down on time here, but was there anything else that you wanted to talk about or highlight that we didn't get to talk about today?
Emma: I don't think so.
Ramya: Okay.
Emma: I feel like we touched on a lot of stuff. Maybe like recommendations for people to check out.
Ramya: Go for it. Yes, please.
Emma: So..I have two of the books. The other one is on my e-reader, but both of Aubrey Gordon’s books. Always. I need people to read them. The whole -
Ramya: Aubrey Gordon, okay.
Emma: Yes, she is the co-host of Maintenance Phase, which I feel like is…people are really into it. It's a podcast that kind of started as, like, debunking fad diets, and now has morphed into, like, such a healing podcast. of, like, debunking a lot of stuff. And they're also so funny. Um, but the other book is called Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings, and that is where a lot of the good information is in terms of, like, the history of it all. Um, and then if you're not really a book person, Maintenance Phase, the podcast is the one that drew me into this back in, like, 2020, yeah.
Ramya: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, last little blurb here, if you want clients, people watching this, maybe future clients of yours, to take one thing away from the information that we've talked about today, what would it be?
Emma: Yeah, oh gosh, that one's actually kind of hard. Um, I'm like, there's so many things. Maybe -
Ramya: Well, it can be a few things, that doesn't have to just be one thing.
Emma: You are the expert of your own body. I don't care what people say. Yes, doctors went to school, we as therapists went to school. We have experience, we're not the expert of your body. Um, and…the next one…this is hard. Um…Do your very best to stop attributing morality to your body and to what you eat. Start noticing the messages of, like, when something is placed in front of you, or maybe a food you're avoiding, are you just calling it bad? Or then you labeling it as, like, I'm going to get fat. Then I'm going to be lazy. Like, what are the moral messagings you have around food and your body? And, like, how can we…think about how do we move that to, like, a neutral standpoint.
Ramya: Sure.
Emma: Because that creates the cycle of shame like nothing else.
Ramya: Yeah.
Emma: But yeah, those are… those are the two things that come to my head.
Ramya: Yeah, thank you for sharing, that's beautiful. Um, and thank you everyone for hopping on to listen to us today. Check out Emma's blog that has some of the same information, but more. Um, that she has written on weight stigma as well. And, um, check back in in the future for any other coffee chats we might have.
Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Emma!
Emma: Bye.
